Can't agree more. But faith in what, and more importantly who? We know because "thus sayth the Lord". The alternative I see alot of is "thus saith my proffesor of religious studies". Or worse maybe "thus saith I"
I'm liking you more and more all the time. Is it possible though, that we can only apprehend , in the Bible, that which the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to. Think of Nicodemus. Top scholar of his Era, and a nice guy. Jesus said he'd have to be born again before he'd be even capable of understanding Jesus teachings. .
I think Jesus was saying that there is a whole category of reality that exists, which is beyond the experience of normal humans. They have not personally experienced the factual existence of the spirit world. The preexistence of life before birth and the afterlife are unknowable to living man, via his day to day experience. While we cannot see or know it's source, we know with certainty that wind exists. We must change our minds about the existence of God and His plans for mankind.
This is the good news (the gospel) that Jesus brought to mankind.
In order to understand the Bible, we must reject all preconceptions that ignorant and scholarly men force upon us.
We must mix faith with our reading in order to allow the truth of God's Word to come through.
Sorry got a little off topic on the last response. I drink a couple beers after work and I'm not always running on all cylinders. Plus I think you triggered me when you mentioned the gospel as somethig other than the percribed definition of the gospel as described in The Bible , lol. So my original assertion, addressed as a question, do you suppose a man can even apprehend God, or Gods truths in the Bible without the aid of its writer, The Holy Spirit? Nicodemus read with faith, was intelligent, moral, ..etc. what was it exactly that was preventing him from seeing in the Torah, though he knew it forward and backward, what Jesus was teaching? The Jews understood the coming messiah as being a savior/king prophesied to sit on the throne of David. They missed the messiah presented as a lamb, a servant, a man of sorrows. They missed that because of their preconceptions as you said. But as a Christian looking at these verses you have to wonder how they miss them. I'm not anti scholar or anti ignorant, I'm pro truth. Truth has many levels of understanding sometimes. And If your not a truth teller well, I'm still supposed to love you anyways so as to honor my Gods commandment to Love Him, and Love others as myself. Not to be a fool and sit at the feet of unbelievers, but still be loving for Jesus sake, empowered by the Holy Spirit which sanctifies us, to be able to do His will. Which otherwise would have been impossible. Like love your enemy. Hopefully this is a better response. God bless, sorry to keep talking, lol. I'll leave you alone now.
Jeff, I need to expand on a couple of terms I used. I didn't mean to imply that the gospel was only a collection of misunderstandings and errors that the rabbis had made about the Torah. Jesus accused them several times publicly about this. Beyond that he explained that this was just a part of the shortsightedness which infected the prevailing viewpoint of the rabbinic class. Remember, when Jesus started preaching and teaching in the small towns and villages his theme was "repent, because the kingdom of God was near". This word "repent" had a broader meaning than "deep regret". It meant "turn away from your sins" and even "your actions in this world are wrong because your priorities are wrong". He told them to listen to him, because God has sent him to bring new and better promises to them. This good news would change their lives for the better and would provide salvation in the afterlife which is to follow.
I'm not comfortable going beyond these personal observations. Christian writers have wrestled with much of what Jesus said. As you have noted it is hard to know who to trust. The problem of too many Bible translations also burdens us all.
I ran a used book store for a number of years and kept a large variety of Christian writers on the shelf. I learned a lot from questions other people were thinking about. This process of reading and thinking about what you read is very valuable. It is the most basic form of study.
Thanks for the response. You seem a very thoughtful person. I don't wrestle with Jesus words I believe them. Don't always understand them, but I believe them. How about that brazen serpent God had the jews erect in the desert to cure snake bites. Turns out that not only is that fantastic symbology for Christ becoming sin and His redemption on the cross for all mankind, but it was also unknown by anybody for a long period of time what that verse even remotely meant; till Christ brings up the verse a thousand or more years later saying, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." And nobody understood what he was saying to any of them either. Only in retrospect, after the resurrection it dawned on the deciples what Jesus was saying. Than there's CorinthiansтАм тАн1:18тАм . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. тАнтАнPaul on the definition on the gospel, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve." Real simple stuff. Just history really, not much to read into here. The Jews were blinded by the samething everyone gets blnded by ego. To the jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. And lastly, тАнтАнRomansтАм тАн1:16тАм тАнKJV. " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That's all I got. I'll see on the next one. God bless you brother.
I thought it might be useful to refresh our memories regarding Paul's (nee Saul) encounter with Jesus on the Damascus Road. Paul relates his experience to King Agrippa.
[Acts 26:12-20]
Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest,but rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Though Christians hold Paul in high esteem, he considered of himself the chief of sinners. Again a template of Christian humility. Our pride is in the Lord. Pride as described in the Bible is the yeast that puffs up. God bless you Dan.
Finally, the Tribe of Benjamin was known for its religious devotion. They were known for their reverence for the Temple of Jerusalem and for their commitment to the worship of the God of Israel....I like this account of Paul's conversion better тАнтАнActsтАм тАн9:1тАн-тАм9тАм тАнKJVтАмтАм. And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, and desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: and he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. The mighty saul name after Saul first King of Isreal, was changed by God to Paul, "little stone". The prideful Saul became the humble slave. A slave to a Holy loving God thankfully. Another related verse i think, later when Paul asked the Lord to remove a infirmity, of sight some say, the Lord said that His grace was sufficient. Perfect example of Christianity, of a Christian man.
My friend Dan, lets review Paul, probably the finest example of a Chritian in the Bible. Though accomplished in both Jewish, and greek knowledge. He was of the tribe of Benjamin , known for its fierce warriors and its reputation as a brave and courageous Tribe.The Tribe of Benjamin was also known for its loyalty to the House of David. The Tribe of Benjamin was the only Tribe to remain loyal to King Saul and David throughout the civil war between SaulтАЩs House and DavidтАЩs House. The Tribe of Benjamin was also known for its dedication to justice. The Tribe of Benjamin was said to be the most honest and just of all the Tribes of Israel, and they were known for their willingness to judge disputes between their own people and those of other Tribes.
Hopefully I'm not misapprehending your point. It's true you need to stop the direction your going in sin , turn around and reach out to the Lord to save a poor lost sinner. Pride of life is a blinding thing. Some never realize the need of being saved.
1 Corinthians 10:23 isn't a license to sin we still have to take responsibility for our action that fall outside the will of God. However our salvation isn't threatened. Just our inheritance.
Did Nicodemus not believe the Bible? He had faith in Gods word surely. Jesus is a mystery, a stumbling stone to most. The Gospel is totally lost on an unbeliever. They dont get the majesty of the event. The Gosepel is an event. That Jesus died for us on the cross and was raised again on the third day. Greatest event in history. Greater than creation. The power of it is lost to most, even saved people. Its above us. We should talk more Dan. God bless.
Thank you brother gonna read this when I get off work. Though it pains me to turn away from this exchange, I'm really enjoying your input. I'll shoot you a response to your thoughtful comment as soon as I get a chance. Might be late. Just ignore it and read it in the morning. Peace brother, God bless you.
Without faith it is impossible to please God. [Hebrews 11:6]
Can't agree more. But faith in what, and more importantly who? We know because "thus sayth the Lord". The alternative I see alot of is "thus saith my proffesor of religious studies". Or worse maybe "thus saith I"
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."
[Psalm 118:8]
I'm liking you more and more all the time. Is it possible though, that we can only apprehend , in the Bible, that which the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to. Think of Nicodemus. Top scholar of his Era, and a nice guy. Jesus said he'd have to be born again before he'd be even capable of understanding Jesus teachings. .
I think Jesus was saying that there is a whole category of reality that exists, which is beyond the experience of normal humans. They have not personally experienced the factual existence of the spirit world. The preexistence of life before birth and the afterlife are unknowable to living man, via his day to day experience. While we cannot see or know it's source, we know with certainty that wind exists. We must change our minds about the existence of God and His plans for mankind.
This is the good news (the gospel) that Jesus brought to mankind.
In order to understand the Bible, we must reject all preconceptions that ignorant and scholarly men force upon us.
We must mix faith with our reading in order to allow the truth of God's Word to come through.
[Hebrews 4:2]
Sorry got a little off topic on the last response. I drink a couple beers after work and I'm not always running on all cylinders. Plus I think you triggered me when you mentioned the gospel as somethig other than the percribed definition of the gospel as described in The Bible , lol. So my original assertion, addressed as a question, do you suppose a man can even apprehend God, or Gods truths in the Bible without the aid of its writer, The Holy Spirit? Nicodemus read with faith, was intelligent, moral, ..etc. what was it exactly that was preventing him from seeing in the Torah, though he knew it forward and backward, what Jesus was teaching? The Jews understood the coming messiah as being a savior/king prophesied to sit on the throne of David. They missed the messiah presented as a lamb, a servant, a man of sorrows. They missed that because of their preconceptions as you said. But as a Christian looking at these verses you have to wonder how they miss them. I'm not anti scholar or anti ignorant, I'm pro truth. Truth has many levels of understanding sometimes. And If your not a truth teller well, I'm still supposed to love you anyways so as to honor my Gods commandment to Love Him, and Love others as myself. Not to be a fool and sit at the feet of unbelievers, but still be loving for Jesus sake, empowered by the Holy Spirit which sanctifies us, to be able to do His will. Which otherwise would have been impossible. Like love your enemy. Hopefully this is a better response. God bless, sorry to keep talking, lol. I'll leave you alone now.
Jeff, I need to expand on a couple of terms I used. I didn't mean to imply that the gospel was only a collection of misunderstandings and errors that the rabbis had made about the Torah. Jesus accused them several times publicly about this. Beyond that he explained that this was just a part of the shortsightedness which infected the prevailing viewpoint of the rabbinic class. Remember, when Jesus started preaching and teaching in the small towns and villages his theme was "repent, because the kingdom of God was near". This word "repent" had a broader meaning than "deep regret". It meant "turn away from your sins" and even "your actions in this world are wrong because your priorities are wrong". He told them to listen to him, because God has sent him to bring new and better promises to them. This good news would change their lives for the better and would provide salvation in the afterlife which is to follow.
I'm not comfortable going beyond these personal observations. Christian writers have wrestled with much of what Jesus said. As you have noted it is hard to know who to trust. The problem of too many Bible translations also burdens us all.
I ran a used book store for a number of years and kept a large variety of Christian writers on the shelf. I learned a lot from questions other people were thinking about. This process of reading and thinking about what you read is very valuable. It is the most basic form of study.
Thanks for the response. You seem a very thoughtful person. I don't wrestle with Jesus words I believe them. Don't always understand them, but I believe them. How about that brazen serpent God had the jews erect in the desert to cure snake bites. Turns out that not only is that fantastic symbology for Christ becoming sin and His redemption on the cross for all mankind, but it was also unknown by anybody for a long period of time what that verse even remotely meant; till Christ brings up the verse a thousand or more years later saying, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." And nobody understood what he was saying to any of them either. Only in retrospect, after the resurrection it dawned on the deciples what Jesus was saying. Than there's CorinthiansтАм тАн1:18тАм . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. тАнтАнPaul on the definition on the gospel, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve." Real simple stuff. Just history really, not much to read into here. The Jews were blinded by the samething everyone gets blnded by ego. To the jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. And lastly, тАнтАнRomansтАм тАн1:16тАм тАнKJV. " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That's all I got. I'll see on the next one. God bless you brother.
Paul's witness to King Agrippa
Hi Jeff,
I thought it might be useful to refresh our memories regarding Paul's (nee Saul) encounter with Jesus on the Damascus Road. Paul relates his experience to King Agrippa.
[Acts 26:12-20]
Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest,but rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Though Christians hold Paul in high esteem, he considered of himself the chief of sinners. Again a template of Christian humility. Our pride is in the Lord. Pride as described in the Bible is the yeast that puffs up. God bless you Dan.
Jeff, thanks for the interchange of ideas.
We have kind of hijacked the thread, so I guess I'll see you down the road, my friend.ЁЯШО
Finally, the Tribe of Benjamin was known for its religious devotion. They were known for their reverence for the Temple of Jerusalem and for their commitment to the worship of the God of Israel....I like this account of Paul's conversion better тАнтАнActsтАм тАн9:1тАн-тАм9тАм тАнKJVтАмтАм. And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, and desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: and he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. The mighty saul name after Saul first King of Isreal, was changed by God to Paul, "little stone". The prideful Saul became the humble slave. A slave to a Holy loving God thankfully. Another related verse i think, later when Paul asked the Lord to remove a infirmity, of sight some say, the Lord said that His grace was sufficient. Perfect example of Christianity, of a Christian man.
My friend Dan, lets review Paul, probably the finest example of a Chritian in the Bible. Though accomplished in both Jewish, and greek knowledge. He was of the tribe of Benjamin , known for its fierce warriors and its reputation as a brave and courageous Tribe.The Tribe of Benjamin was also known for its loyalty to the House of David. The Tribe of Benjamin was the only Tribe to remain loyal to King Saul and David throughout the civil war between SaulтАЩs House and DavidтАЩs House. The Tribe of Benjamin was also known for its dedication to justice. The Tribe of Benjamin was said to be the most honest and just of all the Tribes of Israel, and they were known for their willingness to judge disputes between their own people and those of other Tribes.
Hopefully I'm not misapprehending your point. It's true you need to stop the direction your going in sin , turn around and reach out to the Lord to save a poor lost sinner. Pride of life is a blinding thing. Some never realize the need of being saved.
1 Corinthians 10:23 isn't a license to sin we still have to take responsibility for our action that fall outside the will of God. However our salvation isn't threatened. Just our inheritance.
тАнтАн1 CorinthiansтАм тАн10:23тАм тАнKJVтАмтАм
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not. (Post being saved)
Hey Dan hope your doing well, yes repent indeed.
Did Nicodemus not believe the Bible? He had faith in Gods word surely. Jesus is a mystery, a stumbling stone to most. The Gospel is totally lost on an unbeliever. They dont get the majesty of the event. The Gosepel is an event. That Jesus died for us on the cross and was raised again on the third day. Greatest event in history. Greater than creation. The power of it is lost to most, even saved people. Its above us. We should talk more Dan. God bless.
Thank you brother gonna read this when I get off work. Though it pains me to turn away from this exchange, I'm really enjoying your input. I'll shoot you a response to your thoughtful comment as soon as I get a chance. Might be late. Just ignore it and read it in the morning. Peace brother, God bless you.