Can't agree more. But faith in what, and more importantly who? We know because "thus sayth the Lord". The alternative I see alot of is "thus saith my proffesor of religious studies". Or worse maybe "thus saith I"
I'm liking you more and more all the time. Is it possible though, that we can only apprehend , in the Bible, that which the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to. Think of Nicodemus. Top scholar of his Era, and a nice guy. Jesus said he'd have to be born again before he'd be even capable of understanding Jesus teachings. .
I think Jesus was saying that there is a whole category of reality that exists, which is beyond the experience of normal humans. They have not personally experienced the factual existence of the spirit world. The preexistence of life before birth and the afterlife are unknowable to living man, via his day to day experience. While we cannot see or know it's source, we know with certainty that wind exists. We must change our minds about the existence of God and His plans for mankind.
This is the good news (the gospel) that Jesus brought to mankind.
In order to understand the Bible, we must reject all preconceptions that ignorant and scholarly men force upon us.
We must mix faith with our reading in order to allow the truth of God's Word to come through.
Sorry got a little off topic on the last response. I drink a couple beers after work and I'm not always running on all cylinders. Plus I think you triggered me when you mentioned the gospel as somethig other than the percribed definition of the gospel as described in The Bible , lol. So my original assertion, addressed as a question, do you suppose a man can even apprehend God, or Gods truths in the Bible without the aid of its writer, The Holy Spirit? Nicodemus read with faith, was intelligent, moral, ..etc. what was it exactly that was preventing him from seeing in the Torah, though he knew it forward and backward, what Jesus was teaching? The Jews understood the coming messiah as being a savior/king prophesied to sit on the throne of David. They missed the messiah presented as a lamb, a servant, a man of sorrows. They missed that because of their preconceptions as you said. But as a Christian looking at these verses you have to wonder how they miss them. I'm not anti scholar or anti ignorant, I'm pro truth. Truth has many levels of understanding sometimes. And If your not a truth teller well, I'm still supposed to love you anyways so as to honor my Gods commandment to Love Him, and Love others as myself. Not to be a fool and sit at the feet of unbelievers, but still be loving for Jesus sake, empowered by the Holy Spirit which sanctifies us, to be able to do His will. Which otherwise would have been impossible. Like love your enemy. Hopefully this is a better response. God bless, sorry to keep talking, lol. I'll leave you alone now.
Jeff, I need to expand on a couple of terms I used. I didn't mean to imply that the gospel was only a collection of misunderstandings and errors that the rabbis had made about the Torah. Jesus accused them several times publicly about this. Beyond that he explained that this was just a part of the shortsightedness which infected the prevailing viewpoint of the rabbinic class. Remember, when Jesus started preaching and teaching in the small towns and villages his theme was "repent, because the kingdom of God was near". This word "repent" had a broader meaning than "deep regret". It meant "turn away from your sins" and even "your actions in this world are wrong because your priorities are wrong". He told them to listen to him, because God has sent him to bring new and better promises to them. This good news would change their lives for the better and would provide salvation in the afterlife which is to follow.
I'm not comfortable going beyond these personal observations. Christian writers have wrestled with much of what Jesus said. As you have noted it is hard to know who to trust. The problem of too many Bible translations also burdens us all.
I ran a used book store for a number of years and kept a large variety of Christian writers on the shelf. I learned a lot from questions other people were thinking about. This process of reading and thinking about what you read is very valuable. It is the most basic form of study.
Thanks for the response. You seem a very thoughtful person. I don't wrestle with Jesus words I believe them. Don't always understand them, but I believe them. How about that brazen serpent God had the jews erect in the desert to cure snake bites. Turns out that not only is that fantastic symbology for Christ becoming sin and His redemption on the cross for all mankind, but it was also unknown by anybody for a long period of time what that verse even remotely meant; till Christ brings up the verse a thousand or more years later saying, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." And nobody understood what he was saying to any of them either. Only in retrospect, after the resurrection it dawned on the deciples what Jesus was saying. Than there's CorinthiansтАм тАн1:18тАм . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. тАнтАнPaul on the definition on the gospel, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve." Real simple stuff. Just history really, not much to read into here. The Jews were blinded by the samething everyone gets blnded by ego. To the jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. And lastly, тАнтАнRomansтАм тАн1:16тАм тАнKJV. " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That's all I got. I'll see on the next one. God bless you brother.
Did Nicodemus not believe the Bible? He had faith in Gods word surely. Jesus is a mystery, a stumbling stone to most. The Gospel is totally lost on an unbeliever. They dont get the majesty of the event. The Gosepel is an event. That Jesus died for us on the cross and was raised again on the third day. Greatest event in history. Greater than creation. The power of it is lost to most, even saved people. Its above us. We should talk more Dan. God bless.
Thank you brother gonna read this when I get off work. Though it pains me to turn away from this exchange, I'm really enjoying your input. I'll shoot you a response to your thoughtful comment as soon as I get a chance. Might be late. Just ignore it and read it in the morning. Peace brother, God bless you.
Persistent guided study will nourish the seed of faith which God has given to every man.
[Romans 12:3]
The just shall live by study. Got it.
Habakkuk 2:4
Without faith it is impossible to please God. [Hebrews 11:6]
Can't agree more. But faith in what, and more importantly who? We know because "thus sayth the Lord". The alternative I see alot of is "thus saith my proffesor of religious studies". Or worse maybe "thus saith I"
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man."
[Psalm 118:8]
I'm liking you more and more all the time. Is it possible though, that we can only apprehend , in the Bible, that which the Holy Spirit opens our eyes to. Think of Nicodemus. Top scholar of his Era, and a nice guy. Jesus said he'd have to be born again before he'd be even capable of understanding Jesus teachings. .
I think Jesus was saying that there is a whole category of reality that exists, which is beyond the experience of normal humans. They have not personally experienced the factual existence of the spirit world. The preexistence of life before birth and the afterlife are unknowable to living man, via his day to day experience. While we cannot see or know it's source, we know with certainty that wind exists. We must change our minds about the existence of God and His plans for mankind.
This is the good news (the gospel) that Jesus brought to mankind.
In order to understand the Bible, we must reject all preconceptions that ignorant and scholarly men force upon us.
We must mix faith with our reading in order to allow the truth of God's Word to come through.
[Hebrews 4:2]
Sorry got a little off topic on the last response. I drink a couple beers after work and I'm not always running on all cylinders. Plus I think you triggered me when you mentioned the gospel as somethig other than the percribed definition of the gospel as described in The Bible , lol. So my original assertion, addressed as a question, do you suppose a man can even apprehend God, or Gods truths in the Bible without the aid of its writer, The Holy Spirit? Nicodemus read with faith, was intelligent, moral, ..etc. what was it exactly that was preventing him from seeing in the Torah, though he knew it forward and backward, what Jesus was teaching? The Jews understood the coming messiah as being a savior/king prophesied to sit on the throne of David. They missed the messiah presented as a lamb, a servant, a man of sorrows. They missed that because of their preconceptions as you said. But as a Christian looking at these verses you have to wonder how they miss them. I'm not anti scholar or anti ignorant, I'm pro truth. Truth has many levels of understanding sometimes. And If your not a truth teller well, I'm still supposed to love you anyways so as to honor my Gods commandment to Love Him, and Love others as myself. Not to be a fool and sit at the feet of unbelievers, but still be loving for Jesus sake, empowered by the Holy Spirit which sanctifies us, to be able to do His will. Which otherwise would have been impossible. Like love your enemy. Hopefully this is a better response. God bless, sorry to keep talking, lol. I'll leave you alone now.
Jeff, I need to expand on a couple of terms I used. I didn't mean to imply that the gospel was only a collection of misunderstandings and errors that the rabbis had made about the Torah. Jesus accused them several times publicly about this. Beyond that he explained that this was just a part of the shortsightedness which infected the prevailing viewpoint of the rabbinic class. Remember, when Jesus started preaching and teaching in the small towns and villages his theme was "repent, because the kingdom of God was near". This word "repent" had a broader meaning than "deep regret". It meant "turn away from your sins" and even "your actions in this world are wrong because your priorities are wrong". He told them to listen to him, because God has sent him to bring new and better promises to them. This good news would change their lives for the better and would provide salvation in the afterlife which is to follow.
I'm not comfortable going beyond these personal observations. Christian writers have wrestled with much of what Jesus said. As you have noted it is hard to know who to trust. The problem of too many Bible translations also burdens us all.
I ran a used book store for a number of years and kept a large variety of Christian writers on the shelf. I learned a lot from questions other people were thinking about. This process of reading and thinking about what you read is very valuable. It is the most basic form of study.
Thanks for the response. You seem a very thoughtful person. I don't wrestle with Jesus words I believe them. Don't always understand them, but I believe them. How about that brazen serpent God had the jews erect in the desert to cure snake bites. Turns out that not only is that fantastic symbology for Christ becoming sin and His redemption on the cross for all mankind, but it was also unknown by anybody for a long period of time what that verse even remotely meant; till Christ brings up the verse a thousand or more years later saying, "and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." And nobody understood what he was saying to any of them either. Only in retrospect, after the resurrection it dawned on the deciples what Jesus was saying. Than there's CorinthiansтАм тАн1:18тАм . For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. тАнтАнPaul on the definition on the gospel, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve." Real simple stuff. Just history really, not much to read into here. The Jews were blinded by the samething everyone gets blnded by ego. To the jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness. And lastly, тАнтАнRomansтАм тАн1:16тАм тАнKJV. " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek". That's all I got. I'll see on the next one. God bless you brother.
Did Nicodemus not believe the Bible? He had faith in Gods word surely. Jesus is a mystery, a stumbling stone to most. The Gospel is totally lost on an unbeliever. They dont get the majesty of the event. The Gosepel is an event. That Jesus died for us on the cross and was raised again on the third day. Greatest event in history. Greater than creation. The power of it is lost to most, even saved people. Its above us. We should talk more Dan. God bless.
Thank you brother gonna read this when I get off work. Though it pains me to turn away from this exchange, I'm really enjoying your input. I'll shoot you a response to your thoughtful comment as soon as I get a chance. Might be late. Just ignore it and read it in the morning. Peace brother, God bless you.